Are you logging into your bbs locally or via a terminal program? If so, what terminal program are you using?

Thanks, it's the terminals. mtelnet, netrunner and icyterm all have this issue. syncterm does not and connectbot does not. Both of the last two disconnect on the advent calendar, though...

I have some issues with some terminal programs adding extra CRs when
accessing things on my DOS bbs. It can be fixed by using Syncterm in RAW
mode instead of Telnet mode. I am not sure how you invoke raw mode in
other terminal programs, or if you can.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * White dwarf seeks red giant for binary relationship
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Re: Kannons and Katapults - R
By: Mike Powell to MARTIN KAZMAIER on Wed Dec 03 2025 11:21 am

I have some issues with some terminal programs adding extra CRs when accessing things on my DOS bbs. It can be fixed by using Syncterm in RAW mode instead of Telnet mode. I am not sure how you invoke raw mode in
other terminal programs, or if you can.

Most other terminals do part of what SyncTERM does in raw mode by default, especially around the binary mode and bare CR expansion. Telnet is a stupidly complex protocol, and not all implementers reach the same conclusions about what the various bits of text actually mean because the abstractions that made sense in the seventies don't really match todays landscape.

As for your DOS BBS, it sounds like it simply doesn't have a telnet server answering incoming connections.
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Re: Kannons and Katapults - R
By: Stephen Hurd to Mike Powell on Wed Dec 03 2025 16:57:53

I have some issues with some terminal programs adding extra CRs when accessing things on my DOS bbs. It can be fixed by using Syncterm in RAW mode instead of Telnet mode. I am not sure how you invoke raw mode in other terminal programs, or if you can.

Most other terminals do part of what SyncTERM does in raw mode by default, e text actually mean because the abstractions that made sense in the seventies

As for your DOS BBS, it sounds like it simply doesn't have a telnet server a

The DOSBOX-X virtual modem answers the incoming calls, which are handed to it via haproxy.

Before that, I had tcpser answering for dosemu sessions and, IIRC, had similar issues.

Before that, it was OS/2 and VMODEM and there were no issues. ;)
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Re: Kannons and Katapults - R
By: Mike Powell to Stephen Hurd on Fri Dec 05 2025 10:08 am

The DOSBOX-X virtual modem answers the incoming calls, which are handed to it via haproxy.

Before that, I had tcpser answering for dosemu sessions and, IIRC, had similar issues.

Before that, it was OS/2 and VMODEM and there were no issues. ;)

So, the DOSBOX-X "softmodem" does support a telnet mode that may help with the issue... "ATNET1" selects telnet (and "ATNET0" turns it back off).

The thing to be careful of is that the entire command gets otherwise ignored if the substring "NET1" or "NET0" is in it, so if you're doing other init stuff you need to be sure it's separate.
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So, the DOSBOX-X "softmodem" does support a telnet mode that may help with the
issue... "ATNET1" selects telnet (and "ATNET0" turns it back off).

I assume that goes into the initial modem init string?

The thing to be careful of is that the entire command gets otherwise ignored i
the substring "NET1" or "NET0" is in it, so if you're doing other init stuff you need to be sure it's separate.

Noted. May complicate things a bit.


* SLMR 2.1a * I'm NOT "white," I'm "melanin-challenged."
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So, the DOSBOX-X "softmodem" does support a telnet mode that may help with the issue... "ATNET1" selects telnet (and "ATNET0" turns it back off).

The thing to be careful of is that the entire command gets otherwise ignored if the substring "NET1" or "NET0" is in it, so if you're doing other init stuff you need to be sure it's separate.

So when I am in the BBS program and send 'ATNET1' to the DB-X "modem" I do get an "OK," which would make me think it supports it. To verify this, I sent an unknown string, 'ATBAG', and got "ERROR."

However, if I set the host mode init string to:

ATNET1|~~AT(actual init string)|

Which should send the ATNET1<cr>, wait a couple of seconds, and then send the real init.

I then used the telnet protocol to connect and I still got the same double-CR issue I had before. So apparently it recognizes ATNETx as a valid string but otherwise knows not what it means.... or I need to send it a different way.

Unlike BinkleyTerm, the BBS software *doesn't* have a separate pre-init that can be defined.

$$
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults - R
By: Mike Powell to Stephen Hurd on Sat Dec 06 2025 11:14 am

I then used the telnet protocol to connect and I still got the same double-CR issue I had before. So apparently it recognizes ATNETx as a valid string but otherwise knows not what it means.... or I need to send it a different way.

It's possible that the telnet support doesn't do anything with NVT CRs, I didn't dig in too deeply into the source, just noticed that it does do at least some option negotiation and will track the current state.

So likely you only need to do this if you need to accept or send character 255 (which is a special telnet character) such as for uploads and downloads.
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Contact the author and ask him about it? I gave you his email address, and I don't think I've ever seen him post here, so what you are stating may be falling on deaf ears.

I have already done that and was ignored.

That may be an unfortunate sign that the door is not really supported and therefore is not worth bothering with. :(

Mike

* SLMR 2.1a * "Bother," said Pooh, as he bounced off the Starfury.
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It's possible that the telnet support doesn't do anything with NVT CRs, I didn't dig in too deeply into the source, just noticed that it does do at leas
some option negotiation and will track the current state.

N/p, thanks for the tip nonetheless!

So likely you only need to do this if you need to accept or send character 255
(which is a special telnet character) such as for uploads and downloads.

That is *very* interesting. Since moving away from Vmodem / OS/2, putting
the DOS BBS behind any "proper" telnet server (like mystic's matrix menu) *breaks* file transfers, so apparently those don't necessarily do the right thing, either. ;)

I have it set up to be accessible via two ports. The primary allows folks
who have a terminal program capable of RAW mode to call in without the double-CR while also being able to do things like download a QWK packet.
The other port is behind a telnet server/listener that allows folks whose terminal program doesn't do RAW mode to call in and do just about
everything but transfer files.

Mike

* SLMR 2.1a * LSD: Virtual Reality without all the fancy hardware
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Mike Powell to STEPHEN HURD on Sun Dec 07 2025 11:13 am

I have it set up to be accessible via two ports. The primary allows folks who have a terminal program capable of RAW mode to call in without the double-CR while also being able to do things like download a QWK packet.

To be clear, it's a CR LF, not a double-CR... but a lot of old software will interpret an LF as a CR, so it acts like a double-CR.

The other port is behind a telnet server/listener that allows folks whose terminal program doesn't do RAW mode to call in and do just about
everything but transfer files.

That is odd... a pcap would be elightening. Basically, for telnet, any IAC (character 255) needs to be converted to two IACs (ie: convert 0xFF to 0xFF 0xFF). Not doing that in one direction or the other is what the normal problem with file transfers over telnet ends up coming down to.
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To: Mike Powell
Re: Kannons and Katapults - R
By: Mike Powell to MARTIN KAZMAIER on Sun Dec 07 2025 11:13 am

From Newsgroup: FidoNet.DOORGAMES

Contact the author and ask him about it? I gave you his email
address, and I don't think I've ever seen him post here, so what you are stating may be falling on deaf ears.

I have already done that and was ignored.

That may be an unfortunate sign that the door is not really supported
and therefore is not worth bothering with. :(

some people don't know to work email and some people don't know how to
write decent bug reports. maybe one side has the reply in their spam folder.

and if someone is vague i'm not going to play 20 questions with them. in the end it will be something stupid they did.

right now martin isnt providing any proof of the issue. he's just saying it doesn't work on his system. i can't even GET on his system to verify it due to his system having issues. he then blames synchronet bbs software for the reason we dont have an issue but when you run it outside of synchronet it doensn't have an issue.

should we bring in phil taylor too? make this a bigger shit show?
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Stephen Hurd to Mike Powell on Sun Dec 07 2025 19:52:01

Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Mike Powell to STEPHEN HURD on Sun Dec 07 2025 11:13 am

I have it set up to be accessible via two ports. The primary allows folk who have a terminal program capable of RAW mode to call in without the double-CR while also being able to do things like download a QWK packet.

To be clear, it's a CR LF, not a double-CR... but a lot of old software will

I am a little leary to blame "old software" when the software itself has no issue interpreting the tap of the enter key as "one" return... CR or LF or whatever. It seems more like a case of syncterm, etc., sending an extra character when in telnet mode that older software -- i.e. most BBS software that isn't Synchronet or Mystic -- doesn't know what to do with.

That might be semantics but I it is odd that using an older terminal program over a telnet connection (with something like VMODEM) doesn't cause this, which makes me suspect it is the modern BBS terminal programs that have changed something. I am sure the answer is "cause telnet protocol" but since we are using these terminal programs to telnet into BBSes and not old VAX
or mainframe machines, I have to wonder who thought that was necessary.
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Mike Powell to Stephen Hurd on Mon Dec 08 2025 09:10 am

Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Stephen Hurd to Mike Powell on Sun Dec 07 2025 19:52:01

Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Mike Powell to STEPHEN HURD on Sun Dec 07 2025 11:13 am

I have it set up to be accessible via two ports. The primary allows folk who have a terminal program capable of RAW mode to call in without the double-CR while also being able to do things like download a QWK packet.

To be clear, it's a CR LF, not a double-CR... but a lot of old software will

I am a little leary to blame "old software" when the software itself has no issue interpreting the tap of the enter key as "one" return... CR or LF or whatever. It seems more like a case of syncterm, etc., sending an extra character when in telnet mode that older software -- i.e. most BBS software that isn't Synchronet or Mystic -- doesn't know what to do with.

That's how the Telnet protocol is specified though. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc854:

"CR LF" or "CR NUL" is required in both directions
(in the default ASCII mode), to preserve the symmetry of the
NVT model. Even though it may be known in some situations
(e.g., with remote echo and suppress go ahead options in
effect) that characters are not being sent to an actual
printer, nonetheless, for the sake of consistency, the protocol
requires that a NUL be inserted following a CR not followed by
a LF in the data stream.

Note: there is no ASCII character for "the enter key", usually the enter key is represented by a single CR (^M, ASCII 13), but in the case of the Telnet protocol, it's not. When using Telnet and not in "binary transmit" mode, every CR character must be followed by either a NUL or an LF.

That might be semantics but I it is odd that using an older terminal program over a telnet connection (with something like VMODEM) doesn't cause this, which makes me suspect it is the modern BBS terminal programs that have changed something. I am sure the answer is "cause telnet protocol" but since we are using these terminal programs to telnet into BBSes and not old VAX
or mainframe machines, I have to wonder who thought that was necessary.

If the BBS doesn't actually support Telnet, then Telnet shouldn't be used.
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #66:
RIP = Remote Imaging Protocol (e.g. RIPscrip)
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Mike Powell to Stephen Hurd on Mon Dec 08 2025 09:10 am

I am a little leary to blame "old software" when the software itself has no issue interpreting the tap of the enter key as "one" return... CR or LF or whatever. It seems more like a case of syncterm, etc., sending an extra character when in telnet mode that older software -- i.e. most BBS software that isn't Synchronet or Mystic -- doesn't know what to do with.

That's exactly what it is, but doing that is *required* by the telnet protocol under certain circumstances.

That might be semantics but I it is odd that using an older terminal program over a telnet connection (with something like VMODEM) doesn't cause this, which makes me suspect it is the modern BBS terminal programs that have changed something. I am sure the answer is "cause telnet protocol" but since we are using these terminal programs to telnet into BBSes and not old VAX
or mainframe machines, I have to wonder who thought that was necessary.

It's actually the other way around... the old things like VModem handled the telnet protocol and the door game didn't have to worry about it. Many modern doors however are being passed the socket itself and now the door needs to support the telnet protocol and every doorkit author needs to understand the telnet protocol instead of it being handled by the VModem and only the person who is setting out to write a telnet package needs to deal with the telnet protocol.

Having the door "speak" telnet when it is passed a socket also ends up causing issues when the BBS uses SSH instead of telnet because SSH is an 8-bit-clean protocol, so all of the telnet things that a door has to do, it has to not do for SSH.

Basically it's "cause door is being passed a raw socket and has to telnet protocol itself" instead of the much more sane "telnet server does telnet, door doesn't care".
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Rob Swindell to Mike Powell on Mon Dec 08 2025 14:50:22

Hi, Rob.

"CR LF" or "CR NUL" is required in both directions
(in the default ASCII mode), to preserve the symmetry of the
NVT model. Even though it may be known in some situations
(e.g., with remote echo and suppress go ahead options in
effect) that characters are not being sent to an actual
printer, nonetheless, for the sake of consistency, the protocol
requires that a NUL be inserted following a CR not followed by
a LF in the data stream.

This finally explains why I kept triggering a bug on BeeBS a year or two ago - with CR -> CRLF disabled MuffinTerm was sending NULs after the CR and I could never work out why.

To be fair I didn't try that hard to work it out, I just switched CR -> CRLF on and Vela fixed the bug as well for good measure.

But, yeah - thanks for sharing :)

BobW
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Re: Re: Kannons and Katapults
By: Bob Worm to Rob Swindell on Wed Dec 10 2025 10:25 pm

This finally explains why I kept triggering a bug on BeeBS a year or two ago - with CR -> CRLF disabled MuffinTerm was sending NULs after the CR and I could never work out why.

Glad that info helped!
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #3:
Karl (re: killing Doyle): That second one just plum near cut his head in two. Norco, CA WX: 86.1øF, 18.0% humidity, 3 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
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Martin,

It doesn't detect ANSI music it asks the user if they heard
any or just saw a series of characters.

When I was using GT Power on dial-up for my BBS, it did play the
ANSI music.

Daryl

... Overmedicated?? We have a prescription for that!!
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